Jim: Hi. I’m Jim Arraj, and today we are going to talk about Jung’s psychological types. In fact, we are not just going to talk about them, but we are going to meet people who embody each one of the eight basic psychological types. Jung’s typology is a powerful and effective way in which we can understand normal and natural human differences, but it can only work for us if we overcome certain misunderstandings about it. First of all, psychological types are not something Jung dreamed up, and then tried to apply to his patients. Rather, it grew out of his own experience, and if it doesn’t grow out of our experience, it will always remain a parlor game with no real practical significance.

Just what is psychological types? It is a way we can see ourselves afresh and understand the people around us. Psychological types can be divided into two basic parts. The first is type recognition which we are going to be dealing with today, and the second is type development, or inner transformation. Let’s talk for a minute about type recognition. If someone told us that a few minutes of paging through a book about birds would enable us to identify a bird flashing overhead, we would be rightly skeptical. There are some things that can only be learned by experience, and type recognition is one of those things. While it is not particularly difficult, it does take time, and an understanding of type terminology.

When Jung started working on types, he first described what he called introversion and extraversion. These words have become part of popular language today, but Jung gave them very distinctive meanings. They describe the basic flow of our energy, interests and attention. Jung insisted that every one of us is both introversion and extraversion, but usually one predominates over the other. The result is we have people who are quite outgoing, for example. Their energy and attention flow out to the people and things around them. These people and things capture most of their time and attention. This doesn’t mean that these outgoing people, or what Jung would call extraverts, are not also reflective, or inward looking. They are, but their outward-going part of themselves predominates.

With the introverts, it is just the opposite. Their energy and attention flow inward to the world within, and this world is not simply the world of their ego as if they were somehow just egocentric, but it is much wider than that. It is an inner world that Jung called the collective unconscious. So for introverts, most of their energy flows inward, yet since they are living in this world, too, some of their energy and attention flows out to it. For the first issue in type recognition is whether someone is more introverted or extraverted.

Well, after Jung had formulated these notions, he grew puzzled. They seemed to be too simplistic for the kinds of differences he was seeing among people. Finally, after a great deal of effort, he came to the conclusion that there were different kinds of introversion and extraversion, and he described these different kinds under the headings of what he called the four functions of thinking and feeling, sensation and intuition. Once again, Jung was convinced that we possess all these functions, but some of them are more developed in us than others. Let’s look at the question of thinking and feeling. By thinking Jung meant pretty much what we mean by it today. Thinking is using our powers of reasoning. It is logically organizing our thought in order to come to a decision about something. But Jung decided that thinking was just one way of arriving at a decision. The other way was by feeling. By feeling Jung didn’t mean emotion, but he meant a sense of rapport that we can have with people and things, which rapport tells us whether we like or dislike something, feel it is good or bad for us, and therefore arrive at a judgment or decision just as surely as if we had thought about it. Yet in this case there is no orderly organization of ideas, but rather, it is a more wholistic process of rapport, or lack of it. Jung discovered that there were two ways of perceiving things which he called intuition and sensation. Sensation is easy to grasp because it means nothing more than using our senses to focus on the world around us, or the world within us, with all its richness of detail, with all its color and sounds, its smells and tastes. By sensation we are oriented to the here and now, to the present. Intuition is an equally valid way of perceiving things, but it is a bit harder to grasp. Intuition doesn’t stop at sense details. It uses them as a springboard to bound ahead and try to sniff out hidden possibilities in any situation. It is not present-oriented, but future-oriented. For example, if an extraverted sensation type comes into a room, he or she is aware of the color of the walls, how many people are there, what the furnishings are like, and so forth. But the intuition type may be oblivious to most of these details, and see something or someone that triggers off his or her intuition. For example, the intuition type may see a painting on the wall that reminds her that she has wanted to go to a museum in a distant city, and then she thinks about the plane trip fare, and the other things she would be doing, and so she is living in the future, sometimes at the price of the present. Jung discovered that these various kinds of introversion or extraversion, these four functions, have various strengths within us. If, for example, extraverted thinking is our primary way of judging and coming to decisions, then the other way of arriving at a decision, that is, feeling, and in this case it would be introverted feeling, would be our weakest function. It is the various combinations of the functions, both introverted and extraverted, that give rise to the eight basic psychological types. I don’t want to go into any more detail about the relationships that are found among the various functions within each of us, but what I would like to do is give you a sense of what the eight types are like in the concrete. We are going to meet eight different people, each one of whom embodies one of the eight types. These eight people are all friends of mine, and they work at various jobs. Their knowledge of Jung’s types ranges from nothing to considerable.

Charles

First we are going to meet Charles who is an introverted thinking type with intuition as his second function. Charles has worked as a teacher of creative writing at the college level, as well as a ship’s machinist on the San Francisco waterfront. He has a good understanding of basic type terminology, and good insight into his own type.

Jim: Charles, are you more introverted or extraverted?

Charles: Clearly, my interest is me rather than externals. A real characteristic example is I’ve never subscribed to a newspaper. I really don’t care what’s going on out there. What’s going on in here is what is important to me. World events – typically I’m always ten years behind. The Vietnam War is over, so I’ll go get a history of it and read about it. What’s really important – I’m me. There’s only one of me. I’ve only got a limited amount of time, and what I’m thinking and feeling… It’s a matter also of intensity of focus, focusing depth inward. The whole world in my backyard rather than spreading myself out thin. And it is also a question of just how much data I can process, too. I find there is so much going on out there that I quickly get overwhelmed and have to come in and think about things. Even a movie is an extremely intense experience. Some people go to one one night, and the next night, and the next night, and I am overloaded. I need to think about things. I need to process data. I find that uncharacteristic of most people. They allow for much more audio-video stimulation – just all kinds of stimulation and noise, whereas I need my quiet, I need my privacy, I need my time.

A new situation I find threatening. You are going to take a class in something, for example. Immediately, what are the rules, what are the parameters, who are the good guys, who are the bad guys? Job interviews, shopping, it goes on and on, especially when you have to break out of usual patterns and ask people for favors. That is really characteristic – where the merchandise isn’t quite right and you have to return it, or you are driving some place and you’ve lost your way and you need to ask for directions. Well, I really hate to ask for directions. I would rather just keep driving than ask for directions.

I am very reluctant to jump into a new situation. I don’t find it a challenge or very interesting, I find it very threatening. All these people – don’t know them. And the situation I find comfortable are where I know the people from before, and will talk to just a few, rather than many.

Jim: What predominates in you, thinking or feeling?

Charles: Thinking. Thoughts are always here. There is always kind of just a tape going by with sentences and words and questions and answers and noticing things and comparing things and remembering things and planning things, whether you are awake or asleep. Like in early morning when you are almost kind of awake and slip back and forth, you are aware of yourself. The computer up here never turns off.

Jim: What does feeling mean to you?

Charles: Don’t really know. One has feelings. You are happy, or glad, or angry, but they are very slippery, they are very uncertain sorts of things. Sometimes they can be trusted. they have to be backed up with logic. Particularly aggravating is to be in a situation where you and another person are trying to evaluate someone, and they won’t give their reasons. They say, "This is the way I think about something," but what they are really saying is, "This is the way I feel about it," and you try to pin them down, they can’t. It’s sloppy. What are your reasons, evidence, conclusions. I’m Western. This is a scientific society. I am a product of my education and age. If they can’t justify their choices in terms of facts, reasons, evidence, their feelings are illegitimate. It is sloppy thinking, sloppy feeling. You just can’t do that because it squirts all over. There is no starting point and no ending point. And it is very internal. They say, "Well, this is the way I feel." And I say, "Tell me about it." "Well, this is the way I feel." It is impossible to negotiate, to even understand, and so it is very arbitrary, whereas thinking is non-arbitrary. You’ve got principles and you’ve got conclusions, and you’ve got evidence. It is also a corrigible method. If you say, "Hey, A doesn’t follow from B," they say, "Hey, you’re right. Thank you very much." It allows the possibility of interaction and cooperation. but with feeling, how do you cooperate? You are either on his trip or your own trip, and people are doing their thing. Naw. Feelings are sloppy.

Jim: Which is stronger in you, sensation or intuition?

Charles: That’s a tough one. I work as a mechanic, I am constantly into physical details, and fairly good at noticing physical details. But when a situation is entirely laid out and everything is very explicit, it also goes very, very flat for me. I need that sort of hidden, dazzling – the hill over the next one that I can go explore, the old Daniel Boone syndrome. When everything is known, I feel trapped. I need to escape, I need an outlet. Probably intuition dominates in the sense of Peter Pan. I need to be able to fly out of the window and fly in the window.

Jim: Of the four functions, which is your most developed function, and which is your weakest function?

Charles: I would have to say that thinking is my most developed function because clearly feeling is my least developed function. I don’t do well with people. I don’t do well with feelings. I am very embarrassed by feelings. It is only when I am in a very known situation where I will express feelings of affection, prefer not to wear my feelings on my sleeve, very internal, very private. Clearly, there is no question about it. Feeling is my least, and it is a handicap and a limitation, I realize. In my marriage, for example, it was almost a conscious choice. I picked a person who was very feeling-oriented as a way of complementing myself. I let her do the feeling sort of thing, and I’ll do the thinking function – making up a deficiency through a relationship. No question about it.

Compassion is a real clear example. Nov. 22, 1963, Kennedy gets shot. I said, "Too bad. That’s one person. Why make a big f-ing deal?" Everyone was aghast at my lack of compassion. Other situations. When was it? Recently U.S. invades Panama and fifteen guys get shot. I say, "What’s the big deal? They kill more than that on a week-end." Justice for me is the old draconian sort of finger for finger, and have no sense of mercy, no sense of compassion. Clearly, I know that. That’s the world I would prefer to be judged by and lived by rather than sloppy sort of, "Well, you know, he made a mistake, let’s forgive him." It’s unfortunate. I recognize that rationally I can’t justify compassion. It upsets the rules.

Lee

Jim: Thank you, Charles. Next we are going to meet my friend, Lee. Lee works for the U.S. Forest Service, and has worked on one of their highly trained hot-shot fire-fighting teams. Lee is an extraverted feeling type which makes her Charles’ typological opposite. During this interview, her husband, Bob, is sitting on the sidelines.

Lee, tell us about being extraverted.

Lee: If I’m working, or just walking the dog, or whatever, I notice people walking down the road, and I’ll say hello. If I’m working, I’m usually the one who takes a lot of initiative, and I don’t feel self-conscious because basically all that can happen is I’ll do it wrong, and then I’ll learn. It’s not a big deal. But some people have a problem with that. I don’t. If I make a fool out of myself, that’s OK. It’s just for a moment. I don’t have problems making friends. It’s really easy to meet people wherever it is, whether it’s walking downtown or in the woods. I don’t feel threatened or anything if I’m in the middle of the woods and somebody comes up. It’s usually nice to have friendships, so I’ll start a conversation. I suppose that’s why I think I’m extraverted. I’m not shy.

Jim: Which predominates in you, thinking or feeling?

Lee: Feeling. See, I’m not logical. I’m not claiming to be. (to her husband)

Jim: Give us some examples of how you use feeling.

Lee: That’s tricky. Decision-making. We’ve talked about that before. I do use logic. When I needed a car, obviously I wanted an economy car, and wanted good gas mileage, but I found after our conversation the last time how feeling really plays a lot into it, and whether if I’m late, or coming home from work, sometimes I’ll run into somebody. I ran into a good friend of mine, and he was having some problems, so I ended up talking with him. Several times that has happened to me, and I find myself making decisions by what I think is the great good. Bob knows this. Whenever we go grocery shopping, there’ll be some old person in the vegetable department, or the fruit, and they just kind of mosey on over to me and start saying something like, "Oh, those look really ripe," or "Those don’t look good," and before you know it there is a conversation started, and before you know it I am in a real deep conversation and Bob’s done most of the grocery shopping and come back.

Jim: Well, how do they zero in on talking to you? There are all sorts of people in the store.

Lee: I smile a lot, I think. I know that’s true. I do smile a lot. On the hot-shot crew it was a little different because everyone was very burly and trying to prove themselves. Who can do the most push-ups, or pull-ups, who can be tougher and rougher than each other, and there were a lot of macho men who didn’t want to talk, or if they did, it was only about very few subjects, and it got really boring. How many fires you’ve been on. You can hear those only so often about how tough everybody is, and so I would start talking about their lives, their families, what they did after work, and that didn’t always work. Sometimes it was a real challenge, which was fun, too. Sometimes getting a smile out of somebody was a real challenge. That was worth working for because when you did it was like finding an Easter egg. It was just neat.

Somebody can be very factual. I am married to somebody who wins every argument that we get into because he’s just real good. He’s very logical thinking, he wins his point. Maybe I know in my heart that it is something else, but it doesn’t matter because I can’t even begin to argue that point, and I can’t verbalize feelings. There’re not something that you can do, and he’s going to win every argument because he does.

Jim: How does that make you feel?

Lee: It makes me feel a little frustrated, but now that we have been together for so long, what we do now is I don’t argue. When I see something coming on we don’t argue. What we do is an hour or two later when his emotions are down, and my emotions are, and I’ve given it a little more thought, and then we can talk and be a little bit more flexible, and we’ve come to work that out. But it is frustrating, there’s no doubt about it.

Jim: Do you see places in your life where you would enjoy this thinking…

Lee: process? Oh, yeah. Who wouldn’t? I do.

Jim: What are some examples where it would help you out?

Lee: Organizing my time, being on time, scheduling myself – oh, that would be nice. I got a watch for Christmas, and I’m sure that that has a little bit to do with time. I know I’ve got to do certain things, I’ve got to do time, but I can be side-tracked so easily by other people or feelings or children, or whatever. Little things side-track me, and there I am, off schedule.

Jim: Or is it that feelings can’t be scheduled in the same way?

Lee: They can be I just have got to get it together, and I think that’s one thing I want to work on is getting myself so that I can be scheduled and I’ll have time limits. There are 24 hours in a day. I can accomplish things. I just need to be more organized.

Jim: Charles clearly showed his intuition and thinking, while Lee clearly showed her extraversion and feeling. Now each of us has this well-developed side of ourselves, but we also have a less developed side which Jung called the inferior function, or the fourth function. Now in Charles’ case, his fourth function is feeling.

Charles: If they can’t justify their choices in terms of facts, reasons, evidence, their feelings are illegitimate. It’s sloppy thinking.

Jim: In Lee’s case, her fourth function is thinking.

Lee: Now, I know I’ve got to do certain things, I’ve got to do time, but I can be side-tracked so easy by other people or feelings or children, or whatever. There are just little things that side-track me, and there I am, off schedule.

Jim: Doing typological interviews, like we did with Charles and Lee, are just one way of discovering someone’s type. We can also discover their type by seeing the kinds of work they like to do, and how they do it.

Dee

Next we are going to meet Dee who is an introverted sensation type, and who is an excellent sewer, as we will see.

How long have you been making quilts?

Dee: Well, gosh, I guess about 40 years.

Jim: What got you started in it?

Dee: Well, we were living in a place in Colorado that was kind of far out from town, and I had a sewing machine and a box of scraps, and lot of time on my hands, and I kind of got started. Somehow I would up with a few patterns, too. I picked out the simplest one and went to work. I didn’t know what I was doing, but I ended up with some semblance of a quilt.

This is a state bird and state flower quilt, and I really loved doing this one. I had it stamped a year or so before I got started, and once I got started on it, though, I couldn’t put it down. I got it all done in one winter. There are 400 hours of embroidery in this quilt, and I prefer embroidery to anything else I do, I think. This doesn’t seem particularly difficult. It has a lot of detail.

Jim: Where do you get all this patience from to spend so many hours doing so many little stitches?

Dee: It’s just something I like to do. Somebody else will sit and crochet by the hour. I like that, too. Somebody else can – well, my son is in the telephone business and he matches tiny little wires together all day long, and I would go crazy, yet it is more intricate than this. I want to see something I enjoy doing, and to me it is relaxation. I can sit down when I am really tired, and embroider, and just totally relax with it. It brings me pleasure.

Jim: Why?

Dee: I guess because it develops and grows. You start off with just a few little lines on a piece of fabric, and when you get through you have a realistic-looking figure, if you like realism, which I do. In fact, I used my bird book and my flower book to get the right colors on these because I wanted them to be realistic, and the more real they look, the better I like it.

Jim: Where do you go in your head when you are doing this? What are you thinking or feeling about when you do it?

Dee: Well, usually how the quilt will look when I am through with it, or if it is for someone else, I’ll be thinking, "I wonder how they are going to like it. I sure hope they like it," and I want to do the best job I can do.

Jim: What does that mean?

Dee: Well, for one thing, some of my bird figures I didn’t think they looked realistic, and I even changed the shape of the bird according to how they looked in my bird book. If I’m doing solids, which most of this is, a satin stitch on flower petals, I want it to be real even, and if it doesn’t look as even as I want it to, very often I’ll take it back out right then and redo it.

Jim: How many stitches are in one of those little flowers?

Dee: There’s got to be 25 or 30 in just one little petals, and there are about 15 petals.

Jim: So you are noticing how even the stitches are in each petal as you put them down?

Dee: Yes, and even these little stems, these little lines. You have to put your stitches in just so on those, too, to get them nice and even.

Jim: Isn’t that a bother to get it like that?

Dee: No. Really, it’s a challenge. It’s something that is interesting to do. I can do this thing, and if it comes out crooked and I know that’s not my best work, I’m just not pleased with it.

Jim: So you’ll take it out.

Dee: Yes.

Jim: How much detail are you noticing as you do it?

Dee: I’m noticing all the details. Like this bitter root, for example, which just happens to be right here in front of me. There are all these little rootlets that show in that thing, and I want them to look that way. However they are supposed to be, I want them to be that way. I look at the toenails, and the curve of the bird’s beak, the little tiny feather details. Some feathers are just edged in a little bit of white or light color – just almost a hint of it, and yet to me it is important how those little details are in there because that’s what makes that bird look the way it looks. And sometimes they’ll have a shadow line like along the edge of the bill, or kind of a cheek line that is really more of a suggestion than an actual line, and still I want that to be in there, and show it up as much as I possibly can. Of course, I am working with quite small details, so often I might change my threads accordingly. Sometimes I use just one strand of thread to get the finest little detail. On a heavier object sometimes I go to maybe 3 strands. Normally I use 2 for most of the work, and so whatever it requires to bring out the detail I want, then I do that.

Jim: It sounds almost like painting.

Dee: Yeah, it is. I have often said, "This is my art, the needle is my art." Some people go to needlepoint, or cross-stitch, but I just never have gotten into them because I have been happy and satisfied with doing this. It is gratifying to watch it "blossom" under my hand as I work.

Jim: Do you think people notice the details like you do?

Dee: Up to a point. Sometimes I bring it to their attention – I may be a little vain – but I thought on my quail and the pheasant, particularly, they have so much detail that I sometimes point it out and say, "I really liked this one because it was really difficult. This quail here has all these tiny spots. And I put these tiny little details in after I had had the rest of the bird done on top of the other embroidery because if I put it right on the fabric, then it becomes lost in the other stitches. You can’t see it.

Jim: Do you feel disappointed sometimes when people don’t seem to notice how much effort you have put into it?

Dee: Yes, I do. The first time I showed this quilt – of course, at a distance you couldn’t tell – people thought I had appliquéd the birds on it, and when I point out I had embroidered them, people said, "Oh, my gosh." And they all ran over to it and started looking at it closely, and they couldn’t believe the amount of detail and work I had put into it.

Jim: How sensitive are you to the shades of color you use?

Dee: Very sensitive. I often took my bird book to the store to pick out the colors I wanted so I could have as close to the color it showed in the bird book. Of course, sometimes they are not as correct as real life, but it was the closest I could get.

Jim: Do you ever feel that since you are spending so much time on your quilts that you are missing out on something else?

Dee: Yes. Yes, in a way I do. I have so many interests and things I would like to do that I think I would like to get "caught up on my quilts" so I could do something else. I would like to paint, I would like to do more crocheting than I do, both with the finer threads, and knit kosheen, and in yarn, all three, and maybe rug yarn. I would like to do more in those lines than I am doing. I am not too much into the usual sense of crafts because I like the things I make to be really useful. For things to just sit and look at I’m not too interested. They are pretty, and I like them, but let somebody else do those. There may be a few things I would like to do. I would like to carve a duck out of wood. I’ve always wanted to do that.

Jim: So it’s hard to get to these other things.

Dee: Yeah, it is, because my time is so taken with quilts. For one thing in my own mind and feelings, I want and in a way have to do quilts for all my close kin. I’ve done a quilt for each of my sisters and my brother, each of my kids and grand kids that have had their baby quilts as they came along, and then the grand kids are to get their youth quilts as they approach teenage, plus I’d like to make a quilt for each of my husband’s children.

Jim: Why do you want to do this?

Dee: Well, I just think it’s kind of neat for them to say, "My mom, my grandma, or my step-mom, or somebody, made that for me, and when I’m gone it will be maybe something for them to treasure if they are so inclined. It’s something nice for them to have, something I can do for them that they will always have there to see and use, and know I cared enough for them to do it.

Jim asked me a while ago what I thought about color, and I have all these threads, these different colors of them, and every time I go to make something I still have to buy thread because I never have the right color, if you can believe that, the right color for what I want. That’s how much a stickler I am for color detail.

Jim: Thank you, Dee. As you probably noticed, Dee’s introverted sensation was connected with a strong second function of feeling. Now we are going to meet Lee who is an extraverted intuitive type with a second function of thinking. Lee works as a sign and rubber stamp maker, and like most jobs, people of many types do it, but Lee’s style in doing it will reveal his type.

Lee

Jim: Tell us about the kind of business you run here.

Lee: Basically what I am doing is, I started out doing rubber stamps, but now – it was the old type-setting method with cold metal type, but I saw what kind of a market there was, so I purchased some sophisticated equipment where I can get a black and white to a typesetter, and I can turn it into any kind of rubber stamp, any size I want. I can do logo signatures, etc. In a couple of hours I can do stamps that used to take me 9 or 10 days to get a mold into something in 2-3 hours. This last year I added a computerized engraving system, which doesn’t mean much to too many people, but what it does is it gives you the versatility to be able to take one letter style alone and vary it in an unlimited number of different ways. You can change the height by 1/10 of a point, you can italicize, or reverse the letters. It means so much more to the customer because you can bring the price down, and load the volume ten times faster.

Jim: How did you learn to operate all this fancy equipment?

Lee: Well, I’ve always been one to… if something is being done, I see something throughout the United States or when I was in the Air Force, somebody was doing it. If I didn’t know anything about it, I started checking through trade journals, libraries, asking questions to business people, people who might be in the industry, I just started checking them out to find out. I knew nothing about how to get the typesetter, didn’t even know what it was until I went out and saw how people did it, and got hold of the right company, and the first thing you know, I had some equipment sitting here.

Jim: You can find the state-of-the-art equipment by researching it?

Lee: Yes, it’s just a matter of – if you need something, just go out and look for it. If that doesn’t work, then you find somebody who has got some knowledge, and tell them what you want developed. That’s basically the way I do things. My philosophy is if you want to do something, don’t let anything stop you. Just go out and do it.

Jim: In a normal business, how many people would be required to do what you are doing alone now?

Lee: The ultimate would be – the volume I’m doing right now, probably 3 or 4. My problem is I can’t seem to get organized because of the amount of planning… Basically I’m a technician now, and I should be a business person. That’s what it amounts to. I’m not really running the business. I’m trying to do the technical end of it, the business end of it. I can’t really do any planning. I have it all in my head. I don’t have time to write anything down like I should so I can cut out some of the loopholes and things. Like I said, it probably takes 4 to half a dozen people to run it properly. To do the same amount of work I’m doing now, probably, say, two because I spend 18-20 hours a day, 6-7 days a week.

Jim: If you had people to mind the shop, what part of the business would you enjoy doing most?

Lee: Well, I would enjoy discussing with professional people, such as engineers and architects, bankers, purchasing agents, the people that actually – where I could zero in on volume, where I could set up systems for complete businesses. I don’t like to do one and twos jobs. I like to set up complete systems, and what this does is give me ongoing business in the future.

Jim: When you are working so many hours, how do you sustain such a schedule?

Lee: Well, it has always been my opinion that if you are busy, you are going to be healthier, especially doing something that you really enjoy doing, and the thing with my job is there is so much variety. There is always something new every day. If there isn’t something new, I create something new. I guess that’s what sustains me. It’s not only my occupation, it’s also my hobby.

Jim: You obviously don’t have any trouble coming up with new ideas.

Lee: No, in fact, I get so many ideas sometimes I wish I could just get them out of my mind. It kind of boggles my mind that I don’t have the time to sit down and plan like I want. I could even go through the college and use the advantage of the school to help me develop things.

Jim: What part of the business do you like the least?

Lee: The part of the business I like least, I suppose, is not being able to keep a commitment at a specific time and date. For example, I’ll tell a customer I want to get something done – I guess it is because I don’t have the help. That’s probably the part I like the least. As far as anything I actually do, there is not much of my business that I don’t like. If I don’t like something, if I can’t really sell it, or convince somebody else, then I just get rid of it, such as hot-stamping. I used to be into that, but it takes so much time, so I just kind of got away from that and told the people that if they want something like they, they have to deal in volume and I can farm the work out.

Jim: Some people are present-oriented and enjoy the present moment and details, and other people are future-oriented and enjoy sniffing out new possibilities. Which is stronger in you?

Lee: I am continually looking towards the future. I keep telling my wife I have so many things to do that I wished I could live 3 or 4 lifetimes. I would like to be a lawyer, a doctor, so many things in this life. A person could take any one facet of any one of those professions and just have a tremendous life.

My mind just goes click, click, click all the time. And it’s true I wish I could live 3 or 4 lifetimes. I really do.

Jim: How fast does your mind go? That’s what intrigues me. How do you keep track of so many ideas?

Lee: When I’m sitting watching television, say a junk show, a murder show, my mind is still clicking all the time. I try to file and organize all this. If I could remember everything like I can remember numbers, I could go into business just selling my memory. I am always thinking all the time, even when I’m laying in bed, and it’s not that I’m a nervous person, it’s just that I enjoy life so much, there are so many things to do that I want to get into, I would like to just spend my time, if nothing else, studying about bees, finding out why a bee will go to one hive that is marked completely different than all the rest – these kinds of things just fascinate me.

I guess one of my philosophies has always been, I don’t like for anybody to tell me that you can’t do something because to me that only indicates a degree of difficulty. Maybe it’s possible I can’t fly, but don’t tell me I can’t because there a chance I’ll try to figure out a way to do it. It’s not that I’m stubborn, or I’ve got so much pride. It’s just that I just despise having somebody say that I can’t do that or won’t have the time to do it. If you really want something bad enough, you just go ahead and do it – because it’s not getting it done, it’s the joy of trying to do it.

Jim: Thanks, Lee. Now in Dee and Lee we saw the contrast between the realism of sensation and how it is attached to the present moment, and the future orientation of introversion. Dee is caught up in the present moment, so she doesn’t have the time she would like for new projects. "I have so many interests and things I would like to do that I think I would like to get "caught up on my quilts" so I could do something else." Lee, in contrast, is caught up in so many new ideas it is hard for him to be pinned down to the present moment. "The part of the business I like least, I suppose, is not being able to keep a commitment at a specific time and date."

We have seen thinking, feeling, sensation and intuition, and now we are going to see them again with the attitude, that is, the introversion or extraversion, reversed. First we are going to look at an extraverted thinking type. Herb has spent his life as a mechanic and log truck driver, and he has a remarkable ability to meet problems head-on. Now if we listen carefully, a person’s type can be discovered in the kind of stories they tell. One snowy winter day Herb was hauling a load of lumber over the Cascade mountains in Oregon. The road to the pass was closed, but Herb kept on going.

Herb

Herb: We slid off on the inside of the turn, so that made us be in the wrong land, and we knew it was close. There was no traffic. I didn’t expect to be any traffic. We had gone then as far as we could. Even with chains we couldn’t pull it any longer, so it was just a matter of when we got stuck and where we got stuck. That was the end of the run. In a little while we saw lights coming down the mountain, down the highway, and I could tell right away by the snow boiling up in front of it, it was a snowplow, and we were in the wrong land, and he didn’t see us until he was real close, so he cut it to the left and across the other land, and ran right out into space, straight down for I don’t know how far, and just as he went over the bank, I told Roland, "Let’s get the first aid kit and the fire extinguisher and go down there and see if we can help him." So we were standing there, looking down into this canyon, and we saw that truck standing on its blade down there up against a tree, and the lights still on, and just about then we saw something moving in the snow off to the left of where I was standing, and I looked up, and there was a guy come crawling out of the snow. He said, "Boy, that was close!" (laughs) I said, "Man, you’re lucky. You got out of there just in time." He got us started and we got over the top finally about 4 o’clock in the morning. We went down to the first coffee shop, and these State guys in there were all drinking coffee and commenting about that guy who went by the sign, and they had trouble with him all night trying to get him over the hill. One of them was getting pretty threatening. I said, "Hi, guys, you’re talking about me. I made it. Aren’t you happy?" (laughs) He said, "You could have gone to jail for that trick." I said, "Yeah, but I didn’t. Let’s go, Roland." And down the road we went.

Jim: Why did you go by the sign to begin with?

Herb: We had to get home. (laughs)

Jim: Didn’t you work as a deputy sheriff out in Bly once?

Herb: Bonanza.

Jim: What was that like?

Herb: That’s terrible. I only had to be on three days a week actively in downtown Bonanza. At that time I was around beer joints, chasing the trouble-makers out of town or putting them in jail – whichever they preferred. Most of it was pretty regular stuff, no excitement. I just gave them an ultimatum: either leave town or go to jail. One guy said, "You can’t put me in jail," so I just made sure I put him in jail. I grabbed him with the iron claw and stood him up on his head, and then put the handcuffs on him and pulled him off to jail. That kind of set an example. They said, "Don’t mess around out there because that guy will put you in jail."

Jim: What’s the iron claw?

Herb: It looks like half of a handcuff. It opens up like this… it has a stem on it, and a T-handle here. You open this up and reach out and grab ‘em like that. You trip that and hang right on that T-handle and start tightening up and put a lot of pressure on it. One guy I caught by the neck with it, which is a good thing I did, too, because he had a gun right there. I was lucky I didn’t get shot in that deal.

Jim: What was he doing?

Herb: He’d chopped his common-law wife up with an ax and chopped a hole in her back. They came over to my place and got me, and I reported it. I went to where she supposedly went after this assault and looked it over. I could see her back bone and spine. The first duty is to get her medical attention. I took her to Klamath to the hospital. Then I went back out to Bonanza to arrest this guy who had assaulted her. I went up to the front door. Old lady Jackson told me to be quiet. She said he’s in the bedroom over here, and he’s got a rifle. So you be careful, she says. She told me to come around the back door. She was whispering to me. So I went around the back door and slipped in, and she showed me a bedroom that opened into the bedroom that he was sitting in. I could see him, lookin’ through the two doorways, I could see him sitting there on the edge of the bed, and there was a 30-30 in the corner where he could reach it. I thought well, I either got to give it up or go get ‘em – one or the other. If I could sneak up on him from behind I could nail ‘em before he gets ahold of that gun. So I took my boots off so I could walk quietly and sneaked a step at a time. I had my iron claw. I planned to just reach across the bed and grab him by the neck. I got my iron claw all ready, and slipped up to him and reached across the bed and grabbed him by the neck. Course he just let out a scream and jumped up, and I just twisted the claw, like that, and he came down on his head. (laughs) Then I had him under control. I put the handcuffs on him and hauled him off to jail. That is, I started to go to jail with him. I didn’t cuff him with his hands behind him. He reached over and flipped the door handle and jumped out. So I ran him down and lugged him back in. That time I took a rope and tied him in. (laughs)

He whopped me on the side of the head with the handcuffs a couple of times – with his fists and handcuffs. I finally wrassled him to jail. He got wild just before we got to the jail – again – the last time. I just pulled him out of the car and walked him the rest of the way to jail because I couldn’t keep him off me while I was trying to drive. It was about 10 below zero and there was no fire in the jail. There was nobody in there, no fire there, so I thought this would cool him off. He’d been drinkin’ pretty heavy. He was drunk, but not staggering drunk, just mean drunk, so I put him in the cell and told him I had to make a call. When I went back and started the fire, he was plumb sober by that time. He was pretty cold. He was laying on the floor with the mattress on top of him, (laughs) on the concrete floor. I fired up the little oil stove, and got him comfortable. About that time the Marshall came out and hauled him off.

Jim: Thank you, Herb. Next we are going to meet my daughter Elizabeth. She is an introverted feeling type with a second function of sensation. Liz, tell us whether you are more introverted or extraverted.

Liz

Liz: I’m more introverted because I’m like a cat. I like to curl up in a corner and read a book. I like to visit with people for a while, and then I have to go away. I like being alone.

When I meet new people I tend to be shy for like a day or so until I get to know them and see if they like me, and if I like them, and then I’m not shy around them. When I’m in crowds I just keep to myself, and then if there are a few people I know, then I’ll talk to them, but other than that I won’t go around to everyone and say hi. When I go to work, it takes about three days until I’m really tired, and then I have to be alone in my room, and then I can take another few days to be a total extravert, and then take time by myself and just crash and am totally quiet.

Jim: Which is stronger in you, feeling or thinking?

Liz: Feeling is stronger in my because I don’t use logic. I use my heart instead of my head. When I meet someone, the first thing I notice is their smile and the way they react to me as a person, and then I notice all their details – their hair, their face, their clothes, whatever. If they are responding well to me, then I’ll respond well to them, but if they kind of act like they don’t like me, then I don’t respond to them at all.

With most people I have no problem showing my feelings toward them, but when it comes to guys I like, then that’s a problem because even though I may like them a lot, I don’t show it very well. If they come and sit next to me, I kind of like edge away, like I really don’t want to have anything to do with them. If they smile, I’ll smile, but I won’t be that nice about it. I kind of think that I’m not that friendly around guys that I really like.

Kids are no problem. I can open totally to them because they don’t have too many bad things to say about you, (laughs) and even if it is, it’s so minor it doesn’t even matter. You can talk to them and crawl around on the floor with them, and they won’t go, "Eee, what are you doing?" So they’re fine. The same with animals. They can’t say anything.

My feelings tend to store up since I’m an introverted feeler, and the way I get them out the most, the best way I find, is I write a lot – short stories and songs and stuff. I store up a bunch of feelings and I get them out by writing, but when I don’t write that much I have to get them out in other ways, like screaming at my brother.

I listen to music a lot because, I don’t know, I have to have noise around me constantly, and another reason is if I feel down, then I play music so I can feel better, and if I feel really happy, then I like to practically _____.

I spend a lot of energy trying to please people. If I know they would really like me to do something, whatever it is, and I don’t feel like I really want to do it, but I want to do it to make them happy, not myself.

Jim: Which is stronger, sensation or intuition?

Liz: Sensation is stronger in me because if I walk into a room I notice everything, especially since it is totally new to me. If I am around it all the time, I don’t really notice as much as when it is brand new, but sensation is the strongest in me. I’m totally neat. If anything is messed up, it kind of drives me up the wall. Any detail that is around me I notice if it is new to me. If I’m around it for a few years, then I just take it for granted.

When I meet someone for the first time I notice their hair, the way it is curled, or if it is not curled, the way it is styled, and I think about how much time they spent, and if the color of their hair is natural or not, and their face, their eyes, where they got their eyes from – their mom or their dad – and the lips and stuff. And I look at their clothes, where they shop, and how much time they took, and how much money they spent on their clothes. It only takes a few minutes to assess every part of them. (laughs) It doesn’t take long at all.

Everything I see I have a certain feeling for. Say I see the color yellow. It depends on the yellow, but most of the time I think, "Oh, that’s pretty." But if it is like a mustard color I think, "Oh, barf." It depends on the color whether I like it or not. Everything I see I have an opinion on it. Say I see a nice house that I like, and I like everything about it. At first I say, "Wow, I really like this." Then I get ideas of how I want my house to be, and I get all these feelings and details of how I want my house to be in the future. So everything I see, every day, I might get a little piece that goes into the puzzle of what I want my place, or I want my stuff to be later on in the future.

The way I show intuition is when I’m planning projects. I make a long list of all the projects I want to do – say in a day. It never works out, of course, because I’m just intuiting like mad and maybe only get one project done. There’s where that comes from.

I’m present-oriented, and I like the past, as well. The future I can’t even see.

People who are intuiters get on my nerves sometimes because they have all these projects, and they seem so unrealistic, and I’m the type who has my feet on the ground and think about what can be done today. The intuiters rush on and say, "Well, I’m going to do this and this and this, and it’s months away that they are planning to do this. I say, "Get real." These guys never carry through. All talk and never do, that’s what I say.

My least developed function is thinking simply because I don’t use any logic whatsoever. Well, the way I make decisions is I use my heart, not my head. (laughs) It’s instinct. It’s whether I feel good about doing something or not. If I don’t feel good about it, then I’ll make a scene. The problem with that is people say, "Well, that’s dumb. That’s not logical. Why?" They ask why, and I can’t really answer very well.

Jim: Could you show us one of your pictures and read us one of your poems?

Liz: This is one of my poems I’ve written in the past. It is called, "Poem of the Dream."

You came to me in my dreams last night
Hands full of tropical flowers and the sun’s delight
You touched my cheek as if to say you miss me
But then you slowly fade away.

You came to me in the shadows of my soul
You bring presents of rubies and of gold
You touched my hand as if to say you need me
But then you slowly fade away.

And you speak to me with your dark eyes
And you kiss me with lips that tell no lies
Then you give me back my world
And you slowly fade away.

Jim: Thanks, Liz. Now in Elizabeth the first function of feeling is closely bound with the second function of sensation, and that’s true of just about all of us. The first two functions work together, with the second function helping the primary function, but they are intermingled so if we were to go and find an introverted feeling type with a second function of intuition, it would look different to what we saw with Elizabeth. The same with every other type, so we could have interviews with, instead of eight types, with sixteen different types, but enough is enough.

Next we are going to meet my Aunt Pat. She is an extraverted sensation type with a second function of feeling, and she is the mother of six children.

Pat

Jim: Do you like color?

Pat: Oh, yeah, I love colors. I think colors is what makes people tick. Pat likes red. He is always in a rush, and he is always bopping around. That’s red. But I like yellow, orange, the blues, greens.

Jim: What’s orange?

Pat: Happy. Sun. Bright. And the blues and greens – peaceful like the water and the sky. I don’t like black and white. I think people who wear black and white have no enthusiasm. You know, drab people. I like colors. Although I’m wearing a black shirt. That’s silly, right? (laughs)

I love the smell of my dogs after I give them a bath. The smell of an orange. That’s nice. Smells like meat cooking, corned beef, popcorn. I don’t like to eat popcorn, but I like the smell of popcorn. Popcorn makes you feel like it’s a whole new place.

Jim: If you were to walk into a house for the first time, what would you notice?

Pat: The plants. That would be the first.

Jim: What would you notice about them?

Pat: That they were green, that they were growing pretty, the size of them, how they stand up and were they being taken care of. That one looks pretty droopy right now. And the pictures. That effects the mood of the person, I think, when you walk into a room. It tells you a lot about a person, like what they like, what they don’t like. So I would notice the pictures, the accessories of a room, not so much the furniture – the things that are in a room. A lot of people like sports activities – you notice that in a room. I would notice the pictures. I see the details of a person’s life in a room.

Jim: Explain that to me.

Pat: If you go to my son’s house, you’d know right away he’s a fireman. There are statues around of a fireman. I think that’s it. The picture that are around. That means that a person is family-oriented, and wants their family around a lot. Like in your mom’s house. There are lots of pictures around so you know she is family-oriented. Some houses you go in, and there’s not a picture of anyone around, and I always think, "That’s odd," because they don’t care enough about people to have a picture around them? If there are pictures on the walls of animals, I figure they are animal lovers. That’s how you can tell what a person’s lifestyle is, I think – the accessories of the room, not so much the size of the room or the curtains and stuff. Well, maybe even curtains. I notice I have curtains that are café curtains because I like the sun in the room. I’m an outdoor person. A lot of my girlfriends, you walk into their house, and there are drapes and curtains. There are people who sit around and watch television all day long so they don’t let the sun into the house. I think that tells you a lot about a person. A person is not an outdoor person. They don’t want to sit outside. They’d rather be in the house. That’s a waste, to me.

I guess what I would notice is if it is a homey house. Like, can you sit in the living room, can you have a soda, or is it the type that is like a playhouse. You can’t put a glass down. My mother-in-law was like that. You can’t sit in the living room, you can’t put a glass down, and that’s not a home to me. A home is like, you want to have a messy bedroom, well, that’s your lifestyle. As long as it’s clean. If it’s messy, it’s OK.

Jim: Do you have a problem meeting new people?

Pat: No, I like to meet new people. I guess I’m kind of like one of those people who like to draw out things about them. I like to get to know new people. I’m curious about people. Maybe that’s a fault. I ask a lot of questions. If I go into a situation among new people, I’ll ask questions about them, how many kids they have, or what they do for a living. I like to meet new people. I think it’s fun to meet new people. I think every day is a learning experience, no matter how old you are, so I think to know if people are prejudiced, or they are not prejudiced, and I meet them for what they are.

I think people should try to be nice to each other. They shouldn’t hurt other people’s feelings. If something happens and people apologize for it, you should accept their apology, and not gloat on the fact that they did something to me. If a person sincerely apologizes, take the apology and try to make the best of the situation. I think that people shouldn’t argue, they shouldn’t cause friction in a family. Try to make the best of the situation. Everybody doesn’t have to like it. I’m not saying that. There are some people that I don’t like, but I’ve always had a way of dealing with it, and I try to teach my kids. Mentally you take a picture of things that people do that are good, and then on the other hand you take a list of the things people do bad, and you outweigh them. If you have a person that basically does good things, then you try to do away with the bad things. You like them for the things you know they do. There are a few people I could do without seeing all the time, but when I see them, I’m pleasant to them because I want to be pleasant to people, and because they act bad doesn’t mean I’m going to do the same thing. My outlook is always try to be a peace-maker, try to keep people happy, like in a family unit. I don’t think there should be discord in a family unit. If you don’t like one brother, or something, keep your mouth shut, and live with it. This is life. Make the best of it, and don’t argue and don’t fight.

I like people, kids especially. Kids are honest with you. If they like you, they like you. If they don’t like you, they don’t like you. Kids are more fun, they have better personalities. I find when you get to be adults, you get to be more cynical about life. Life’s too short to be like that. You think the best of everybody. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a bad kid. I like all kids. I don’t appreciate them if they have bad mouths. But I don’t like to deal with adults because I think they are not honest in life. I don’t think adults basically get along with each other. I think they are in competition with each other, and I don’t like that in people. I think people should get along, and everybody try to be nice and don’t hurt people’s feelings. Life is too short. Try to be nice to everybody.

I think kids are like that. They can be mean among themselves, sometimes, but as an adult, I enjoy kids more than I do people. If I have to work in school, if I have the choice, I’d rather work with the kids than with the adults. Kids will be better adults if you treat them like people. Some people will take kids and put them in a corner, and don’t let them have a voice. You have to treat kids like people, not just like little kids. I treat kids like people and have fun with them, try to be their friend and try to guide them to be better adults so they won’t be like catty people, or two-faced. I don’t like two-faced people.

When I am away from the house, the kids in the neighborhood don’t come around. I can sit on that stoop for like ten minutes, and I have all the kids in the neighborhood around the stoop, from the little ones to the teenagers because I sit around with them. I kind of like to hang out with kids. (laughs) That seems silly, but that’s the truth. I like to hang out with kids. The younger ones – there’s a little boy on the block and everyone thinks he’s a little trouble-maker. He’s going into kindergarten. He’s adorable. He needs some discipline every now and then, but he’s a cute kid. I like the kids. Even if there’s something wrong with them, I can still pick out the good things. There’s one kid up the block, very hyper, giving his parents trouble, but I find things in that kid that I like. I would like to have that kid for about a month, and I’d change that kid.

Jim: If someone was going to punish you, and gave you a choice between being in a room with a lot of people who were going to be up talking and singing for 16 to 20 hours a day, or being in absolute solitude where you didn’t have any contact with people, what would be the biggest punishment?

Pat: Being in solitude would be the biggest punishment.

Jim: Why?

Pat: I guess it’s because I like people. I wouldn’t want to be away from people forever. There are times when I like to be in a nice quiet room. I like this room, and if I had, say, a day, I’d like to sit in this room and look at the stars at night. I sit with the shades open at night because I like to see the planes go by. Oh, God, I couldn’t be in solitude. It would make you, oh, I don’t know, you’d probably start looking into yourself and finding things that you don’t like about yourself, if you had to deal with yourself like 48 hours in a black room. I think that would be the hardest thing for people in prison when they get put in solitary confinement, to have to live with yourself, like day after day.

Jim: …as opposed to…

Pat: …being with a group of people because I can handle this one’s personality, that one’s personality, but I don’t think I could handle my own personality for 48 hours. I might find out things that are wrong with me that I didn’t like. That’s a bad question. (shudders) I don’t like that question. (laughs) That’s the first one I found I didn’t like.

Jim: Thanks, Pat. Next we are going to meet my son, John, who is an introverted intuitive type with a second function of thinking. Are you an introvert or an extravert?

John

John: OK, I’d say the real difference between me and the so-called true extravert is, yeah, sure, I’ll go out in the front row of "Petra" (a band) and I’ll scream. I’ll just be the most rocking out person there. I’ll just go up to people and say, "Hey, dude, how’s it going?" And people will say, whoa, this kid is so extraverted. What they don’t know is I come home, I say, "Hi, Mom. Hi, Dad." I’m dead. I will pass out for like 96 hours in a row and I’ll wake up and pry my eyelids open, and say, "Whoa. Morning, everybody. I think I’ll go right back to sleep." That’s where I pay. I’m dead. I’ve seen true extraverts. They will get up and go party, just like me, and will stay up just as late, and the next morning they are up and ready to go, and they want to party more. I say no, it’s time to sleep. It’s time to die. I’m a zombie.

Jim: Which is stronger in you, intuition or sensation?

John: Well, I’d have to say intuition because whenever somebody asks me to remember like the color of their clothes, what shirt I’m wearing today, whether I have my glasses on or watch, where I put something, it’s a total blank to me. People will talk about a person we just met, and will say, "That guy had gorgeous blue eyes," and I’ll say, "OK. He had blue eyes. I’ll take your word for it." Details like that totally go over my head.

Jim: How does your intuition show itself?

John: I’d say the clearest example is usually it’s a 4x4 going down the street. It’s just the piece of junk. It’s totally rusted, it’s gray-colored, the tires and wheels…, and I say, "Whoa." That thing could be the most awesome car in Klamath Falls if, and then, if a paint job, and I’ll do this to it, and I’ll modify the fenders, I’ll put on these new tires and mags, and I’ll drop a 351 Cleveland nitrous oxide. I don’t even stop to think it would be much easier to go out and buy a brand new rig. And pretty soon I’m not even looking at the car anymore. I’m seeing what it can be. I’m not seeing whether this is really just a piece of junk that’s not even worth doing anything with. I just see what it is going to be.

Jim: Do you follow through on intuition?

John: that is a big problem. Say, body-building, for example. I’ll make a list of about 50 things – how to do each and every exercise, how to eat, and everything, and I’ll be real energetic for the first 15 minutes. The only problem is when it comes time to do the second workout, it just doesn’t happen. It’s gone.

Jim: How many new ideas do you get during the course of a day?

John: I can’t count that high. By the time I reach the end of the day, I’ve done so many things I can’t even remember what I was doing at the beginning of the day. I wake up in the morning. As I reach over to get the book I am supposed to study, I’ll just see the cover of a 4-wheeler magazine, and I’ll say, "Hey. Someday…" I start off with one idea that triggers another idea. Someday I’ll own a 4x4. It’s going to be a jacked-up Toyota 4x4. Then I’m going to be a paramedic to raise the money to get the 4x4. Nah. I’m not going to be a paramedic. It’s not exciting enough. I’ll join the L.A. Swat Team. Oh, yeah, and by the way, I’m going to be taking Tai kwon do. By the way, I’m going to start working out. And then I’m going to buy these guns. And I’m going to live in this house. And pretty soon, I’m sitting on my bed, three hours have gone by, the book is open, laying on the bed next to me, and I say, "John, what are you doing?" I’ve just gone through my whole life story and I haven’t even opened my book. It’s almost lunch time and time to do my report. And those three hours are like gone. Poof. Get your act together. If I had spent the amount of time actually working in the time I take dreaming, I would probably be the richest person around here because… 24 hours a day… Even when I’m studying a book, I’m just constantly… They can say one word, they can say "radioactive wastes," and I’m gone, and pretty soon I’m thinking about how I’m going to colonize Mars, or something like that. One thing leads to the next. It’s like an ongoing thing. It never stops.

Jim: How does thinking show itself?

John: First, I’m real intuitive, and then I’ll picture my fantasy of a 4x4 all jacked up and all the potentials and all the things I’ll do with it, all the fun I’ll have, and then I’ll stop, and I’ll just take it apart in my mind, piece by piece, just bolt by bolt, until I’ve just got everything down into tiny little parts, and then I’ll polish each and every part, and I’ll perfect it in my mind, and I’ll put it back together and build it until I have perfection.

Jim: What about actually working on cars? Do you work on cars?

John: Oh, please. Cars are my worst nightmare. I love dreaming about them, but put me under there and I’m OK for the first five seconds, and the oil starts dripping in my face, I rip my fingernails – (screams) – I cannot stand this. Please. Just give me a job. I’ll work. I’ll work at anything but actually on cars to get the money to buy cars because I am like the worst person in the world when it comes to working on cars.

Jim: What about your feelings?

John: My feelings are like so intense that I lock up on them. If someone will say something to me and hurt my feelings, my immediate reaction is to either cuss them out or just turn away. They’ll never know. It’s kind of like a mental thing. If they hurt me, well, I’m not going to let them know that they actually got to me. I won’t show them that I’ve been in pain. Later, if they come to me and say, "Hey, what’s wrong?" then I’ll tell them, but they have to make an issue. I’m never going to show them that they hurt me.

Jim: Can you bring out your feelings and use them to relate to people?

John: I can’t control it. Well, that’s not quite true. But a lot of times all of a sudden – gush – all of a sudden I have feelings for a while. It’s not that I don’t have feelings all the time, it’s just that they’re not right here. I can’t deal with them. And then lots of times I’ll have my feelings come up, and people think that I’m just the normal John, and they don’t know, hey, this is feeling John, and I’ll reach out and try to touch people, and they are so used to my constant jive, or whatever, and they’ll just treat me normal, and that really hurts. There’s no way I can say, hey, this is not the normal me. This is me with the extra feelings. I’ll just reach out and I’ll smile at people, they’ll just go "ehhh" because they are used to me – normal me – which I would care less whether someone smiled at me or not. That hurts, and then my feelings disappear. But there are times when they just come out, and it blows me off my feet where I start crying. That’s rare, but it has happened. I find I can bring them out if I work on it. I just say, hey, don’t jump on people, don’t verbally attack them all the time, and relax, and when I try to restrain my thinking and intuition, then my feelings have a chance to come out and relate. But it is a real pain to try to restrain myself.

Jim: What are some of the things you can think of that would help you to be more balanced?

John: If I told you everything I thought I had to do to be more balanced, you’d be sitting here for the rest of your life, but I’d say one is discipline. If I have discipline I can basically work on every other problem I have. Another is feelings. I really come on a little too strong. Sometimes I copy on people when I really should say, "That’s OK," give them a sweet smile, give them a hug, and say, "Hey, I know you have problems, but I’ll stand by you." But instead, I just say, "Hey, here’s what you should do about it," and I’ll give them all the reasons why, and everything else, and they’ll just say, "Whoa, I really can handle my own life, thank you." I’d say discipline, and then being – not being a more caring person because I’m a really caring person – but showing that I’m a caring person.

Jim: Give me an example of when you do have sensation at your disposal.

John: I do have sensation when it comes to what I want. If, whatever I’m working on, is important to me intuition or thinking-wise, then my sensation comes into play. Like for example, I was into ring casting once. I’d cast these rings, and I would spend hours cleaning them off with a file, polishing them – that’s all detail work, but it was because I was focusing. I don’t have an unlimited range of sensation. I have sensation for like one item. I have to select it out, and I have to block out everything else and focus it. A lot of people can just walk down the street, and say, "Whoa. I see all the colors." I can pick one thing out and say, "Yes. That item was pink. I’m sure of that." They can do the same thing with thousands of items.

Jim: Thanks, John. Now that we’ve seen the eight types, we are in a better position to understand some of the features of Jung’s typology. The differences that Jung described are deeply rooted differences. I think we are all born with them, and they embrace our bodies and biochemical make-up, as well. We have to learn to see types. Theory is not enough. Sometimes I can recognize a person’s type after I’ve known them for a few minutes. Other times it literally takes years. All of us have a well-developed side, and a fourth, or inferior, function, and if we can accept the fact that these differences exist, we have a superb tool for understanding the people around us, and developing tolerance. What we have been seeing in terms of the eight types and type recognition is just the beginning of typology. Let’s get a sense of what typology is like in action by meeting my married friends, Roy and Ellen. Roy is a log truck driver, and is an introverted thinking type, and Ellen is a clothes designer, and is an extraverted feeling type. This makes them a marriage of opposites.

Roy

Roy, how does your intuition show itself?

Roy: I think that I can take things in better than letting them go out, I guess, because I don’t feel that I am as outgoing as other people around me as far as expression and dealing with other people. I don’t think that I need people around me as much as other people do – most people, I would say, and I can sit and read for days, and I guess I value my own opinion more than somebody else’s.

Ellen

Jim: Ellen, how does your extraversion show itself?

Ellen: Well, I like to do things around other people. I like to teach people how to do things, I like to involve other people in my life, and I like to be out there in the front. I like to be the center of attention. (laughs) I’m a performer, and I like to be watched, and I like to be looked at rather than have me look at other people. I would rather be looked at.

Jim: Roy, how do you feel that you are different from Ellen, and how does that effect you?

Roy: There are times in my life when I was pretty much the center of attention, and I guess I enjoyed it. I don’t know. I feel people change, and I definitely have changed the other way. I would much rather that camera was on her than me, and I would rather somebody else was out front there saying, "Hey, look at me," so I’m glad if she can let me be inside and she go out there and have a good time, as long as you don’t involve me, I’m really happy.

Jim: Roy, what is stronger in you, sensation or intuition?

Roy: The one I think is stronger would probably be the intuitive side, but I think it might be about like 60-40. I like to look ahead, and I like to plan ahead. I want to be able to retire in comfort, and I want to be able to look down the road and say at least I’m heading toward a certain goal – very much – and yet at the same time I’m obviously married to a wife who is very much a sensater, and so apparently I like that, too. I really enjoy the mountain. I can look out there (outside his window he can see a beautiful snow-covered mountain) – this is my favorite view right here. As far as senses go, I like food, and I don’t like cigarettes. I like to look at art and things, so I don’t know what to say besides I think it’s more intuition, but 60-40.

Jim: What about you, Ellen? Which is stronger in you?

Ellen: I think I misunderstood the word intuiter before because for some reason I was thinking intuition meant more on a kind of spiritual level. As far as a spiritual level, I think I am very intuitive, but on a day-to-day level I think I am definitely a sensater because I really get into the moment of things, and if my emotions, or whatever, in that moment it is very important what is in that moment to me. I’m not necessarily thinking what it is going to be like tomorrow. So I think I’m probably more of a sensater, but I think I also have a lot of intuitive parts of me, too.

Jim: Ellen, which is stronger, thinking or feeling?

Ellen: I understand the difference between emotion and feeling, but I definitely feel things. The feeling to me is more a kind of spiritual feeling. I think it’s aligned with God. My feelings about God, I don’t know, there’s like a soul feeling that goes into when I meet a person, I have a feeling about them when I meet them – whether they are a good or bad person – or whether they would be good for me or bad for me. Or just a feeling about a situation, and I tend to go towards that. Sometimes I feel I should rely more on my logic in a lot of situations, but I don’t, and it is very difficult for me to plan things because I have a hard time sitting down and logically thinking out a plan for an activity, or something. Instead, I’ll just go in and do it, and get it done, and work it out however it works out. (laughs)

Jim: Roy, as a primary thinker, how would you describe your feeling function?

Roy: I think that a lot of times I try not to express my feelings because they are a little bit strong sometimes, so I try to control my feelings more than Ellen does, say. Ellen can let fly. That’s Ellen, and I have to watch myself more than that. I can’t absolutely let fly. As far as actual emotions go, how do you say, I guess you can’t judge them right or wrong, or more right than yours. It is the intensity you can judge, I guess, by what comes out, but even if it doesn’t come out, it doesn’t mean that there is not one heck of a lot of intense feelings there, and very strong feelings, opinions. This is the way it is, and damned if it isn’t.

Jim: Roy, as a logger driving a truck for 6 or 7 days a week, and usually more than 400 miles a day, what do you think about?

Roy: Family, a lot, and money, and paying attention to my job. It is a serious job. It’s mostly mental because you don’t want to die, and it’s a dangerous job, a dangerous occupation, so you are trying to take care of business.

Jim: Does it bother you to do the same thing, or is it always different to you?

Roy: There is some variety in it. If I didn’t enjoy doing it I couldn’t do it as much as I do, so I guess I enjoy some repetition, and it is a repeat process – definitely a repeat process. But there is always something different going on, and seasons change. In the spring and summer and fall you are watching out for deer. In the winter time you are watching out for patches of ice, and all the time you are watching out for that idiot who is coming at you. Basically if you go to sleep on the job you’re dead. You don’t survive it. You hurt somebody, and so you have to pay attention to what you are doing.

Jim: Do you enjoy your job?

Roy: Yes.

Jim: What do you enjoy about it?

Roy: I enjoy being by myself and making money. I enjoy driving truck. I enjoy the speed, too. I enjoy travel, movement.

Jim: How about you, Ellen, what kind of work are you doing?

Ellen: Well, I do a lot of different kinds of work, but my main work is designing clothing, designing very special one-of-a-kind creative clothing for people to wear to express their individuality. I make clothing for "original" people. (laughs) That’s what I mainly do, but there are times when I have my slack time where I’m not working all the time. During that time I take care of the family a little bit more, cook them more dinners, clean the house now and then. I also teach aerobics. I do teach aerobics no matter what, at least two days a week. I think that’s about it. Mostly be a mother, a wife, a designer, and my hobby is keeping my body physically fit.

Jim: Roy, how do you deal with Ellen being an extravert?

Roy: I’m not sure that I do it very well, but basically I think it is up to her to deal with me, the way I am, because – just because. I feel that if I change it will be because I want to change, not because Ellen wants me to change. I guess I’m just a stubborn old man. How do I deal with Ellen? I let Ellen do her thing as long as she can at least give me a little bit of space.

Jim: Ellen, how do you deal with Roy’s introversion?

Ellen: Well, I just continue to pursue what I need to pursue. If it means he can’t go with me, then he can’t go with me, and if he doesn’t want to go with me even if I think he’s going to have a really good time if he does, (laughs) then I just go anyway. I have to continue doing what I’m doing to be who I am. I try to do as much as I can. I just continue to be who I am and hope for the best – that we can work it out together for our differences.

Roy: Something I need to say there. People do change – a lot – and I feel that I have done a lot of changing since Ellen and I have been together, too, and we were more alike when we got together than we are now.

Ellen: Me, too.

Roy: We have definitely not grown together as far as…

Ellen: We’ve gotten worse. (laughs)

Roy: …as far as our feelings about what needs to be done, what is important. We have grown farther apart.

Jim: Roy, how do you feel about going out a lot?

Roy: It depends on where I go. I have a large family in this area, and so I have been around my family a lot. I can socialize with my family fairly well. I have a hard time with Ellen’s club friends, the exercisers and the partyers and the play people. I can’t relate to them. I feel very isolated. I find a corner and stand in it, and I don’t enjoy myself very much – unless I get really drunk!

Ellen: Then he has a good time.

Roy: And then I have a good time.

Ellen: You had a good time at our party here.

Roy: I got really drunk! (laughs)

Jim: How about you, Ellen? How do you feel if circumstances are such that you can’t go out and get away and do the social things that are so much a part of you? How do you feel when that happens?

Ellen: I feel very stifled. I feel like I belong out there in the limelight. I kind of belong out there, dressed in pretty clothing, and walking around. I just feel that I’m a part of that scene, and so when I’m not part of that scene, it feels awkward. I feel like I’m not in the right place. I feel like I need to go out and do that to be who I am.

Jim: Roy, do you think people accept you for what you are, or do they try to change you?

Roy: I think I am resented in a lot of ways because I’m not as nice a person as a lot of people would like me to be. But at least what I tell these people is, at least I’m not bothering you. (we all laugh) Leave me alone, and we’ll be just fine. I usually get in trouble for not communicating, and then when it finally comes out, when I finally get angry and everything, they say, "Whoa, you shouldn’t be saying that now. That’s too much. We didn’t like that." So I go back down again, and stay there until I can’t take it any more, and then I come out, and everybody says, "Now you shouldn’t do that." (We laugh) "Why don’t you talk to me?" And then when I talk to them, they say, "Oh, that’s not nice. You told me how you felt, and I didn’t like it." "Then leave me alone. Don’t ask."

Ellen: "Don’t ask." I’ve learned not to ask.

Jim: Roy, what kind of advice would you give to people who are also in a marriage of opposites?

Roy: Try and stay cool, and try and allow space. Try and give what you can with the entertainment or the partying and stuff, and basically still do your thing and make sure that the other person understands that you need to do your thing, too. I guess basically be understanding and patient. When people are together this strongly differentiated, it really requires a lot of patience. Maybe not so much patience as the ability to get through it – persevere. What can I say? Try to find the things that you can do together. She enjoys music. I enjoy music. Find something you have in common and do that, and if you don’t have something in common and you don’t like to do what she likes to do, then allow her to do her thing, and you do yours. Allow each other a lot of space. (sighs) That’s all I’m going to say there.

Jim: What about you, Ellen? If you were giving people advice about how do you deal with these kinds of differences, what would you tell them?

Ellen: Well, I think I would say, again, be patient. Try to be patient with each other as much as possible. Accept each other for who they are, and try to remember why you fell in love, or why you got together in the first place with that person. I am always reflecting back to what I saw in him from the beginning, (laughs) what I was attracted to at the very beginning. Oh, that was a wonderful time. And then also to just keep yourself, - for me, being a person who is so dependent on other people for their entertainment and everything – try to find something that you can do for yourself. Get out and go do something. If he won’t go with you, or whatever, then you go do it yourself, and don’t hesitate to do it. Do it. Eventually he might come along now and then. Who knows? If he doesn’t, then at least you’ll be getting yourself independent enough to enjoy doing things on your own. You never know that that person might not be there anymore, you know. Life is pretty fragile, so you might as well get started being independent so that if that ever should happen, you would know how to be in the world on your own. That’s a hard thing for me to accept because I like people, but I think it is something that has been real good for me to do things all on my own.

Jim: Thanks, Roy and Ellen.

What we have been seeing in meeting these ten people is just the beginning of type recognition. We could go on and take each one of the four functions and look at it in each one of the four positions, for example, how it is when it is the first function, or the second or auxiliary function, how it shows itself when it is the third function, or when it is the fourth, or inferior, function. But we have seen enough to get started, and what we have to do is practice this skill of type recognition in our own lives.

There is just one final and very important point I’d like to make. Type recognition is just part of what Jung meant by psychological types. The other part is type development, or inner transformation. What that means is that we can go on what Jung called the process of individuation by way of typology. By starting from our more developed first and second functions, and working our way down and trying to get in touch with our third and then our fourth function is equivalent to the very thing Jung described as a journey to wholeness. So we can’t separate type recognition from the whole rest of Jung’s psychology.

Now if you are interested in what this process of inner transformation is like from the point of view of typology, I suggest you become familiar with Jung’s writings, especially his book, Psychological Types, and other things in the Jungian literature like Marie-Louise von Franz’s little book, The Inferior Function. I have also written some things about that with my wife, Tyra, who is the person behind the camera, and one of them is a practical guide to Jung’s typology. (Tracking the Elusive Human, Volume 1) It describes what it is like to go on the journey to individuation through typology. It also brings Jung’s psychological types together with body types, which I think there is a real connection there.

We have a second book (Tracking the Elusive Human, Volume 2) which is a more advanced guide to Jung’s typology, and again its connection with Sheldon’s body and temperament types, and to the kind of biochemical typology that could emerge out of many of the exciting discoveries that are being made today.